(no subject)
Mar. 4th, 2013 11:16 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
A thing that has been really annoying me about the horsemeat scandal reporting but is actually only tangentially related.
So, some people came over all "well don't eat this nasty crap then" so some other people came over all "but it's cheap and easy and delicious". Now, I don't dispute "easy"; it certainly is a lot easier to buy a microwave lasagne than to prepare your own. I'm not sure about "cheap"; I've never really thought about it, but certainly compared to other low-effort food options (for instance going out for food). And anyway there whole layers of stuff to do with lack of access to cooking skills, equipment, etc.
But really what's pissing me off is the "delicious" part. It's not that I dispute that some people find this type of food tasty; clearly they do. But I've seen a number of people writing about how these foods are "carefully engineered" to be exactly the sort of thing that most appeals to humans. A view that basically "these foods are super addictive; it is only through sheer willpower that anyone resists them" (and often goes on to insist that people ought to, well, have more willpower - which is a shitty thing to insist; but anyway).
Personally I think this is utter utter bullshit. What these companies have done is not a triumph of food science. It is a triumph of advertising. Of getting into people's heads and saying "this is what food should be"; especially getting to people young.
The thing is that in part because my parents were seriously strict about not having this sort of food; and in part because my current lifestyle is fairly well insulated from a lot of advertising crap; and in HUGE part because I've never lacked money to the point that I've been fretting about the cost of using the oven... well; I've never accustomed myself to eating these types of food, and essentially as a consequence of that I think most of them are simply disgusting. I genuinely would prefer to eat rice and beans. I know most people wouldn't.
I think that the people who write things like "OMG McDonalds makes addictive food we must stop them somehow!" are PART OF THE PROBLEM - they are participating in the advertising campaign that says "this food is addictively delicious".
I think that if "we" want to change the way "people in general" eat the answer has to involve teaching people that the "better" food is delicious, is "normal", etc. etc. And I think we need to get them young. Personally I'm not particularly interested in telling people what they "should" eat; but I would welcome attempts to make healthier food cheaper, and more available so that more people have more actual choice about what they eat, rather than being forced into making the cheapest choice.
So, some people came over all "well don't eat this nasty crap then" so some other people came over all "but it's cheap and easy and delicious". Now, I don't dispute "easy"; it certainly is a lot easier to buy a microwave lasagne than to prepare your own. I'm not sure about "cheap"; I've never really thought about it, but certainly compared to other low-effort food options (for instance going out for food). And anyway there whole layers of stuff to do with lack of access to cooking skills, equipment, etc.
But really what's pissing me off is the "delicious" part. It's not that I dispute that some people find this type of food tasty; clearly they do. But I've seen a number of people writing about how these foods are "carefully engineered" to be exactly the sort of thing that most appeals to humans. A view that basically "these foods are super addictive; it is only through sheer willpower that anyone resists them" (and often goes on to insist that people ought to, well, have more willpower - which is a shitty thing to insist; but anyway).
Personally I think this is utter utter bullshit. What these companies have done is not a triumph of food science. It is a triumph of advertising. Of getting into people's heads and saying "this is what food should be"; especially getting to people young.
The thing is that in part because my parents were seriously strict about not having this sort of food; and in part because my current lifestyle is fairly well insulated from a lot of advertising crap; and in HUGE part because I've never lacked money to the point that I've been fretting about the cost of using the oven... well; I've never accustomed myself to eating these types of food, and essentially as a consequence of that I think most of them are simply disgusting. I genuinely would prefer to eat rice and beans. I know most people wouldn't.
I think that the people who write things like "OMG McDonalds makes addictive food we must stop them somehow!" are PART OF THE PROBLEM - they are participating in the advertising campaign that says "this food is addictively delicious".
I think that if "we" want to change the way "people in general" eat the answer has to involve teaching people that the "better" food is delicious, is "normal", etc. etc. And I think we need to get them young. Personally I'm not particularly interested in telling people what they "should" eat; but I would welcome attempts to make healthier food cheaper, and more available so that more people have more actual choice about what they eat, rather than being forced into making the cheapest choice.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:01 pm (UTC)For that matter, it's not cheaper either. I make my own burgers, it costs me £3 for a pound of meat, which logically I can get four quarter pounders from. Bread is £1 for 6 white scufflers [large buns]. So pricing it out, that's 92 pence per burger.
Pretty sure that's a lot cheaper than McD's.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:09 pm (UTC)Taste is indeed super subjective.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:41 pm (UTC)That said, I suppose if you don;t have the time to spare, 'slam it in the oven' packet food is a realistic option. [although, if that were the case, I suppose I'd make and freeze mine for later.]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:22 pm (UTC)Tastes can vary in a number of ways. For example, people can have their tongues configured differently (I think this is a component in supertasters). Also, there are neurological conditions that affect the senses, taste is no exception. Also, acquired tastes - my experience with these is that there's usually some overpoweringly strong component to the taste that you have to learn to work past, and then there's something complex and subtle underneath. Whisky is a good example of this, especially peaty Islay malts, especially Laphroaig.
On top of that, there's a whole load of stuff to do with tastes being dependent on expectations, and varying depending on the presentation and the price tag and a whole load of other factors.
By your reckoning, are the first lot of factors (the ones in the big paragraph) objective or subjective?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:33 pm (UTC)Strictly speaking, nothing is truly objective though. Not even 'objective' measurements based on instrumentation, given that our perception of the instrumentation is filtered through our fallible senses and the nature of the observer effect implies that our expectations can bias the result.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 09:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 09:42 pm (UTC)Also, dammit, I want convenience food aimed at my taste ;-p
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 11:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-06 02:27 pm (UTC)Over here across the pond…
Date: 2013-03-07 02:57 am (UTC)I eat vegan, and not having to deal with meat and dairy at all is amazing. I don't microwave anything either, because microwaving—for one thing—destroys nutrients, so is counterproductive.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 12:15 pm (UTC)It appears that many people (including detractors) find a lot of fast food pretty tasty. Certainly tastier than anything they could have concocted themselves out of the same ingredients.
So you have £5, or perhaps just £1. You can either spend it on cheap ingredients cunningly combined by a megacorp that makes a huge profit, or you can try to stretch to nicer ingredients to make a tastier meal. The latter will almost certainly be more wholesome, but will it actually taste nicer?
You say yes. You also say you've been conditioned from birth to like "proper" food. I fear there might be a smidgen of snobbishness on your part, there? Certainly, though I appreciate fine foods, I still hanker once in a while after those heavily artificial "cheese and onion" and "salt and vinegar" flavours crisps used to have in my childhood. If you'd been raised on cheap burgers, your tastes might now be very different.
I'm not so sure it's objective.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 12:26 pm (UTC)I have been conditioned from birth to eat Food X and not Food Y; I submit that this is evidence that Food Y is not in fact universally amazing, but that it's amazingness is conditioned in. Presumably, yes, if I'd been raised on burgers and crisps and coca-cola I'd love them just as much as anyone else who was. My whole point is that it's not a matter of "this food is amazeballs and this food is boring; for everyone, ever, end of" but rather a matter of "the food that you have been socially conditioned to appreciated is amazeballs and the food that you haven't is strange and weird".
The economics of the situation are a bit complicated; and I think I'd actually have to try it to know. Megacorp is making profits - so surely I can undercut? But also they get bulk discounts on ingredients, maybe even using things that aren't available for general sale? And that's not even starting to think about the cost of my labour, time, experience, well equipped kitchen... It's trivially obvious for instance that readyfood has a much smaller time/effort cost than cooking for yourself does, and this is of course vitally important.
If I were in the game of "trying to make people not eat processed meat product" then I'd be wanting Megacorp to make cheap, easy, ready meals out of the ingredients that I think they should be using; selfishly I want them to do that anyway, because readyfood IS more convenient.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:16 pm (UTC)Laphroaig; it has a reputation as a "you love it or you hate it" whisky. It's an acquired taste, it's hard to acquire even by whisky standards. Certainly there was a long time when I liked lots of whiskies, even peaty Islay malts, but not Laphroaig - but now I seem to have the taste.
OTOH, aubergines, I never could get the taste for those, in fact they taste worse since I had a good try at getting the taste.
This experience seems to be remarkably common, and it is very striking. It seems... less a case of the amazingness being conditioned in, rather the "argh! fire!" and then the "urgh! smokey bacon flavour!" being conditioned out.
I suppose the idea I have here is that a lot of fast food is the polar opposite of Laphroaig - easy to like for many people but too simple and/or bland or dominated by one main taste for people used to different food. Like a jaunty tune tapped out on a stylophone.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:28 pm (UTC)Maybe I'm just epic weird?
I don't dislike fast-food for it's bland simplicity (bland simplicity might be boring but it isn't nasty). I think in the main I dislike it because of the overeliance on meat; and the nasty texture of processed meat. I like crunchy vegetables!
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:40 pm (UTC)I eat quite a lot of convenience food these days, and a moderate amount of fast food, possibly there is an overreliance of fakemeat in some cases, but there's quite a lot that isn't. A pizza slice and chips (with too much salt) from Gardies doesn't over-rely on meat. Things aren't bland with too much salt on them; OTOH it is reasonably close to finding some "nice food" button in your brain and hammering on it repeatedly with no subtlety or finesse.
Textures... I'd almost forgotten about textures. I tend to concentrate too much on flavour. I wonder if this comes of being a chemist?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:45 pm (UTC)I find texture very important in food; about co-equal with taste I guess.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 04:35 pm (UTC)Apropos salt - we never had it on the table (or, indeed, in almost any food) at home because my Grandmother had a series of strokes, and my Mum was paranoid about salt. As a result of which, I find many things too salty (including chips).
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 04:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 04:03 pm (UTC)There are a number of solutions here; eating the same thing 2-3 days in a row lets you spread the time and financial costs, as does freezing some and defrosting.
But for someone who lacks the patience to eat the same thing more than once in a week, and/or lacks the spoons to cook every 2-3 days, I can see the prepacked meals might look appealing.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 04:07 pm (UTC)I mostly wish that the range of available tasty, cheap, low-effort food was better. Because we're never going to be able to ensure everyone has heaps of money and free time.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 01:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:01 pm (UTC)But nothing wrong with eating horse.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-05 08:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 02:57 pm (UTC)People who might hold such a view, for reasons other than just thinking it true.
1) Smug oh-so-authentic people who like to look down on "sheeple".
2) People who think that Capitalism Is Evil (with the capital letters, ie going far beyond rejecting free-market fundamentalism), and anything showing too many signs of being too closely associated with a certain sort of economy is highly likely to be a form of mind control, or otherwise destructive to free will. To be fair, possibly this is to counter the people on the right who say that capitalism is all about freedom and you shouldn't take that freedom away.
That said, you can think of "addictive" as being different from "nice" - there's a certain sort of food which is "moreish" which isn't just tasty, it's a certain sort of tasty. The sort that creates cravings?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 03:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 03:47 pm (UTC)So, I reckon the fast food industry do kind of take advantage of people's biological inability to choose what they crave, but I think people who come from the willpower side of the argument should try being genuinely at risk of sleeping on the street and then see how they argue against their stomach hormones.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-04 03:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-05 08:29 pm (UTC)And if the main luxury you had growing up was a hit of sugar which is a penny even now, that's going to affect your taste associations.
but I would welcome attempts to make healthier food cheaper, and more available so that more people have more actual choice about what they eat, rather than being forced into making the cheapest choice.
I'll get back to the day job then...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-05 09:17 pm (UTC)We live in one of the "worst" areas of Cambridge but are within what I would consider very easy walking distance of three reasonable food stores and easy cycle or bus journeys of dozens. I guess maybe Cambridge is really really strange. I've never tried to buy groceries in London.
I don't doubt that early food experiences shape our food preferences for life; that's why the perfidious advertisers like to get in young. Personally I confess a preference for ludicrously expensive chocolates; and neither my bank balance nor my waistline thank me for it - probably my childhood food experiences had something to do with that.
That and the notion that porridge is a substrate for SALT not SUGAR; wretched sassenachs putting the WRONG unhealthy condiment on their porridge :-p
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-06 09:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-06 02:16 pm (UTC)Previous year my housing may have been illegally skanky in many ways, but was near a Food Giant, 1p baked beans in KwikSave, and 20 ethnic groceries trying to sell you stuff and if you said you didn't know what to do with a strange vegetable, they'd give us one free and say what to do. And.was dirt cheap. I ate much better that year than when I had 3x the disposable income in Mill Hill.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-08 04:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-05 11:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-03-08 04:36 pm (UTC)