(no subject)

[naath]

A thing that has been really annoying me about the horsemeat scandal reporting but is actually only tangentially related.

So, some people came over all "well don't eat this nasty crap then" so some other people came over all "but it's cheap and easy and delicious". Now, I don't dispute "easy"; it certainly is a lot easier to buy a microwave lasagne than to prepare your own. I'm not sure about "cheap"; I've never really thought about it, but certainly compared to other low-effort food options (for instance going out for food). And anyway there whole layers of stuff to do with lack of access to cooking skills, equipment, etc.

But really what's pissing me off is the "delicious" part. It's not that I dispute that some people find this type of food tasty; clearly they do. But I've seen a number of people writing about how these foods are "carefully engineered" to be exactly the sort of thing that most appeals to humans. A view that basically "these foods are super addictive; it is only through sheer willpower that anyone resists them" (and often goes on to insist that people ought to, well, have more willpower - which is a shitty thing to insist; but anyway).

Personally I think this is utter utter bullshit. What these companies have done is not a triumph of food science. It is a triumph of advertising. Of getting into people's heads and saying "this is what food should be"; especially getting to people young.

The thing is that in part because my parents were seriously strict about not having this sort of food; and in part because my current lifestyle is fairly well insulated from a lot of advertising crap; and in HUGE part because I've never lacked money to the point that I've been fretting about the cost of using the oven... well; I've never accustomed myself to eating these types of food, and essentially as a consequence of that I think most of them are simply disgusting. I genuinely would prefer to eat rice and beans. I know most people wouldn't.

I think that the people who write things like "OMG McDonalds makes addictive food we must stop them somehow!" are PART OF THE PROBLEM - they are participating in the advertising campaign that says "this food is addictively delicious".

I think that if "we" want to change the way "people in general" eat the answer has to involve teaching people that the "better" food is delicious, is "normal", etc. etc. And I think we need to get them young. Personally I'm not particularly interested in telling people what they "should" eat; but I would welcome attempts to make healthier food cheaper, and more available so that more people have more actual choice about what they eat, rather than being forced into making the cheapest choice.

Comments

[gerald_duck]

Have you read Fast Food Nation?

It appears that many people (including detractors) find a lot of fast food pretty tasty. Certainly tastier than anything they could have concocted themselves out of the same ingredients.

So you have £5, or perhaps just £1. You can either spend it on cheap ingredients cunningly combined by a megacorp that makes a huge profit, or you can try to stretch to nicer ingredients to make a tastier meal. The latter will almost certainly be more wholesome, but will it actually taste nicer?

You say yes. You also say you've been conditioned from birth to like "proper" food. I fear there might be a smidgen of snobbishness on your part, there? Certainly, though I appreciate fine foods, I still hanker once in a while after those heavily artificial "cheese and onion" and "salt and vinegar" flavours crisps used to have in my childhood. If you'd been raised on cheap burgers, your tastes might now be very different.

I'm not so sure it's objective.

[naath.livejournal.com]

I'm sure a lot of people do find fastfood tasty; but it does irritate me when they assume it is a *universal* desire.

I have been conditioned from birth to eat Food X and not Food Y; I submit that this is evidence that Food Y is not in fact universally amazing, but that it's amazingness is conditioned in. Presumably, yes, if I'd been raised on burgers and crisps and coca-cola I'd love them just as much as anyone else who was. My whole point is that it's not a matter of "this food is amazeballs and this food is boring; for everyone, ever, end of" but rather a matter of "the food that you have been socially conditioned to appreciated is amazeballs and the food that you haven't is strange and weird".


The economics of the situation are a bit complicated; and I think I'd actually have to try it to know. Megacorp is making profits - so surely I can undercut? But also they get bulk discounts on ingredients, maybe even using things that aren't available for general sale? And that's not even starting to think about the cost of my labour, time, experience, well equipped kitchen... It's trivially obvious for instance that readyfood has a much smaller time/effort cost than cooking for yourself does, and this is of course vitally important.

If I were in the game of "trying to make people not eat processed meat product" then I'd be wanting Megacorp to make cheap, easy, ready meals out of the ingredients that I think they should be using; selfishly I want them to do that anyway, because readyfood IS more convenient.

[ptc24.livejournal.com]

I have been conditioned from birth to eat Food X and not Food Y; I submit that this is evidence that Food Y is not in fact universally amazing, but that it's amazingness is conditioned in.

Laphroaig; it has a reputation as a "you love it or you hate it" whisky. It's an acquired taste, it's hard to acquire even by whisky standards. Certainly there was a long time when I liked lots of whiskies, even peaty Islay malts, but not Laphroaig - but now I seem to have the taste.

OTOH, aubergines, I never could get the taste for those, in fact they taste worse since I had a good try at getting the taste.

This experience seems to be remarkably common, and it is very striking. It seems... less a case of the amazingness being conditioned in, rather the "argh! fire!" and then the "urgh! smokey bacon flavour!" being conditioned out.

I suppose the idea I have here is that a lot of fast food is the polar opposite of Laphroaig - easy to like for many people but too simple and/or bland or dominated by one main taste for people used to different food. Like a jaunty tune tapped out on a stylophone.

[naath.livejournal.com]

I like Laphroaig. It's much nicer than other whisk(e)y.

Maybe I'm just epic weird?

I don't dislike fast-food for it's bland simplicity (bland simplicity might be boring but it isn't nasty). I think in the main I dislike it because of the overeliance on meat; and the nasty texture of processed meat. I like crunchy vegetables!

[ptc24.livejournal.com]

ISTR emperor being particularly keen on Laphroaig, and having never been keen on Speyside whiskies. Seems odd to me, but there you go.

I eat quite a lot of convenience food these days, and a moderate amount of fast food, possibly there is an overreliance of fakemeat in some cases, but there's quite a lot that isn't. A pizza slice and chips (with too much salt) from Gardies doesn't over-rely on meat. Things aren't bland with too much salt on them; OTOH it is reasonably close to finding some "nice food" button in your brain and hammering on it repeatedly with no subtlety or finesse.

Textures... I'd almost forgotten about textures. I tend to concentrate too much on flavour. I wonder if this comes of being a chemist?

[naath.livejournal.com]

Things are horrid with too much salt - although I think salt is one of those things you build a tolerance to by eating it. The right amount of salt is of course delicious ;-p

I find texture very important in food; about co-equal with taste I guess.

[emperor]

Amusingly, I do now like rather more Speysides than I used to, and since having a less-wooded Laphroaig, have been much less keen on their standard expression.

Apropos salt - we never had it on the table (or, indeed, in almost any food) at home because my Grandmother had a series of strokes, and my Mum was paranoid about salt. As a result of which, I find many things too salty (including chips).

[ptc24.livejournal.com]

Salt: I had a similar experience growing up with butter. These days... there are some circumstances where some butter is quite nice, others where I'd much rather have margarine, as I find the butter a bit overpowering.

[toothycat]

The key insight is bulk cooking. You have to cook typically 8-12 portions at once to get a wholesome meal (including a staple, some meat/fish/seafood/hard cheese/etc, and a fresh anti-scurvy component of some sort) in the magic sub-£1 per serving range that is significantly nicer than anything you could buy pre-packed. (If you cook more at once, you can bring the costs down even further - though personally I prefer to make even nicer things instead :))

There are a number of solutions here; eating the same thing 2-3 days in a row lets you spread the time and financial costs, as does freezing some and defrosting.

But for someone who lacks the patience to eat the same thing more than once in a week, and/or lacks the spoons to cook every 2-3 days, I can see the prepacked meals might look appealing.

[naath.livejournal.com]

As a student I frequently ended up eating the same dinner every day for a week. BOOOOOORING. Boring is easier when the rest of your life is fun I guess?

I mostly wish that the range of available tasty, cheap, low-effort food was better. Because we're never going to be able to ensure everyone has heaps of money and free time.