(no subject)

[naath]

foreverdirt linked to this excellent talk about sexism in science, the talk is an hour long and there are introductions before and questions after so it is a bit long, but I think worth it.

One of the excellent points made, and one that I have failed to express when I wanted to, so I'll do it here instead - is saying things like "women are innately worse at science" is *actively harmful* to the progress of women in science, and that if you are thinking of saying such a thing in public then you really ought to be very sure that you are right; that just saying such things with the force of your reputation and your conviction that you are right will cause other people (in this case women) to internalise the message (and as a result be worse at science). It turns out that this has actually *been tested*; if you give girls a maths test then they *do worse on it* if you remind them that girls aren't good at maths before they sit it.

Comments

[random-c.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is something that people just don't seem to grasp. If you're constantly told you're bad at something... you're not going to put the effort in. If you're constantly treated as though you don't know what you're doing, you're going to either start believing it or get pissed off and do something else instead where you WILL be taken seriously. And this, ladies and gents, is the real reason there are fewer women than men in IT.

[naath.livejournal.com]

And then all the men are like "Oh, but you should just ignore it" or "Don't be such a wuss". Which is EPIC FAIL at basic human psychology.

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Which is EPIC FAIL at basic human psychology.

Except for the few of us who are just naturally contrary :-).

But, yes. Grr!

[naath.livejournal.com]

Well, OK, some people are basically contrary. But I think that expecting the majority of women to be so inclined whilst the majority of men get away without...

[random-c.livejournal.com]

Oh if I'm told I'm not ALLOWED to do something I'll kick like hell.
But trust me on this, if you're told often enough that you're incompetent, stupid, just not good enough, whether it's overt or not, it gets to you, no matter who you are. And when everyone else has internalised that it's true as well it just makes it all the harder.

[naath.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's much easier if someone says "no girlz allowed" to kick up a stink, because being *forbidden* from something is obviously an incentive to fight to be allowed it.

But yes, the constant degrading commentary is much harder to ignore.

[random-c.livejournal.com]

And the more subtle matter of just being constantly assumed to be the one who's in the wrong, or not as worth listening to as those who keep their gonads where they can play with them...

[djelibeybi.livejournal.com]

those who keep their gonads where they can play with them

Nice term ;-)

You're right, it's not the being *told* that you can't do something or not allowed to do something that's the problem because most of us *will* rebel. It's the constant, underlying presumption that we cannot. No challenge, just presumption.

And grrrrr!

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

But trust me on this, if you're told often enough that you're incompetent, stupid, just not good enough, whether it's overt or not, it gets to you, no matter who you are.

Oh, I've had a lifetime of it. But I'm not going to become some shrinking violet and fade away :-).

[random-c.livejournal.com]

Nor will I, but nor will I pretend I'm not affected by it because I am. mostly nowadays I just find it infuriating and react to it with anger, and get told I'm imagining it, being paranoid, being a hysterical girl...

[random-c.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, Dog's 'strong and weak' bullshit. Here's a hint: Strong people don't snap and snarl at others all the time. That's defensive behaviour.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

They couldn't ignore it if it happened to them - that they're saying it just shows that they never have been treated like a second-class citizen.